- If you wanna find the truth in life, don't let music pass you by.

We all have our playlists with songs for hanging out, working out, or just chilling out.

Songs we listen to and come back to again and again because they move us.

These songs come from talented musicians and artists that give us the soundtracks of our lives.

But what is it like for these musicians as they age in the music industry?

Hi, I'm Frederick Taylor and I am here to discuss that point and more with some of Nashville's local musicians.

Here's Dave Pomeroy, bass player and president of the Nashville Musicians Association.

Dan Schafer, a lifetime professional musician.

And singer, songwriter, Valierie Ellis Hawkins.

Welcome, and thank you, all for being here today.

- Thank you.

- Thank you for having us.

- Valierie, you are a new face with all of this, and so it's a pleasure to have you here today.

We'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about yourself.

- Okay, well, I am a vintage country singer.

I have been singing country music for all of my life.

I grew up in the church.

I'm actually native to this area, a neighboring county, to Davidson County.

And I have been here.

I was a part of the Black Country Music Association that Frankie Staton founded, along with Cleve Francis, and traveled with them for many years, singing country music and am continuously working on my craft of just of songwriting.

And I'm here in Nashville and sing a good bit, and I'm planning a tour for this fall.

- That's terrific.

You're really good friends with Frankie as well.

- Yes, pretty close.

- Can you share a little bit about that as well?

This relationship that you have with Frankie that I'm going to assume is a mentor?

- Yes, yes, Frankie is amazing.

As you just saw Frankie.

She, we've been... Frankie, okay, so I came to know Frankie because I had just left or came out of an arts development deal at Warner Brothers in the late 1990s.

And Frankie had formed a Black Country Music Association and she was looking for artists to travel, to sing.

And so I would audition for that and Frankie and I have been close since then.

And, And in just the past few years, we started writing together, which has been tremendous that we can share um, share in that way together, and, um, And Frankie is always in my corner, always pushing, not just for me, but for other female artists pushing to get us out there to the forefront.

- I think what's keep thinking about the writing aspects of this, because that sounds like that's something that's very important to you.

And I know this is also very important to these gentlemen sitting here as well.

Dan Schaefer, what we'd like to do now is hear a little bit from you about performance versus publishing, simply because writing is the backbone of this industry.

But unfortunately, a lot of artists don't always have control of their intellectual property or the songs that they write.

And can you sort of help us to understand the difference between the publishing and performance?

- Well, you've pretty much wrapped it up.

I mean, I was part of a publishing company for 12 years, and publishing is owning the songs that are written basically at least the mechanical rights for making sheet music and airplay and things like that.

The writer, in most cases still has some of their rights and makes some of their money for the writer being the writer.

But as a performer, I continued to perform and that's always been my main thing, even though I've had some success as a songwriter, but performance has always been my main income.

Even while I was with the publishing company, I was still performing on the Opry or working with an artist or playing at Opryland or something like that, - Dave Pomeroy.

- Performing is sort of the melting pot of all these different things because as technology has evolved, there's always been this fear of live music and live performance being replaced or compromised.

And I think what we're learning, especially now in the era of AI, is that authenticity is very valuable.

And Guy Clark told me one time, he says, the last stage of writing a song is performing it.

That you can write it, make a demo or make a recording.

But when you play it in front of an audience, that's when you really know how that song has worked.

For me, I've certainly had much more activity as a player, both touring and recording than as I had as a songwriter.

But at the same time, I've learned to recognize the importance of that.

And I was very fortunate to have Chet Atkins record one of my songs.

Don Williams, who I worked with for a long time, uh, sat down with me and wrote songs together and eventually recorded one of them.

So, I think these things are all, they're very much intertwined, but I think performance is where it really comes together in the public format, and, and as great as it is to watch something on your computer, it's not the same as being in the room where it's all happening.

And what I think is so important about that is that two people who could not have a good conversation about anything could be standing next to each other, loving the same song in a performance thing, and find some common ground that didn't exist.

- That is a very, um, definitive way of expressing that.

For all of us, we've all been in music venues and things like that, and there could be someone standing right there next to us that we have absolutely nothing in common with, but there will be an artist up there on stage, and then suddenly we're able to bond with one another as well.

- Absolutely.

- So, Valierie, that brings me to the next question.

You are in a different nominal space as an artist.

You are a female artist, you are a woman, so you have certain types of experiences that are categorically different from the rest of us guys sitting up here on stage with you as well.

- Yeah.

- And you being able to communicate some of these experiences that you've had in life and talk about some of the connection points that you have as a female artist - Okay.

- And connecting with other women as well.

- Okay.

- And maybe some of the things that they've said to you when you've performed.

- Okay.

And just not only just being a woman, but being an African American woman and singing country music, um.

So, I go back to K.T.

Oslin.

And I don't know, a lot of people may not know who she was, but she was, she started her career later in life.

And, you know, And I was recently at my high school class reunion and even at my age people were like, "Well, you're talented.

You're gifted."

It shouldn't matter what age you are.

I think when people hear great music, we hear with our ears, not our eyes, not what we see.

And it was kind of like, for me, those things fuel what I'm doing.

And they drive me to do what, to keep doing what I'm doing.

And I don't really know that I've had too many people come up to me and say, you're just too old to do this.

Or you don't fit the cookie cutter.

But it is true.

(chuckles) it is true in the industry to music row.

They're not looking for someone like me, generally.

And age does matter in that case when they're handing out record deals and you don't get one, and that you know that you're talented, you can write.

Undeniably these guys, I played with Dan at the airport.

He's amazing, you know?

But we don't get those same opportunities and it just feels, why?

- Good question.

- I mean, why?

I'm just, why don't we, why aren't we noticed, why are we overlooked when record deals are being handed out?

And when they're looking for artists to perform at these big events, we're just, we're overlooked and we're doing what we can to live and to do what we wanna do and express ourselves.

And it's not stopped me.

I can say that.

That I'm going.

Just like Frankie, we are here and we're gonna do what we can do.

- Agreed.

And it's extraordinarily frustrating because there's been no greater time in the history of the music business because of the digital age that people have access to music, you know, all over the world.

Before we came on, we were discussing like some interesting aspects of music in other continents like Africa as well.

- [Valierie] Yes.

- And it is true that the numbers of people around the world that absolutely positively love all genres of music that come from America, but in particular also country as well.

- Yes.

- And people forget that there are some very identifiable characteristics to country that have to do with people just living, trying to stay alive, trying to keep their families going, trying to feed their kids relatable and things like that, that are very, very universally relatable.

And as you all know, there is a limited number of people that have the ability to find those connection points.

And one of the things I wanted to sort of ask you, Dan, Schafer, how and why does music keep you young?

What is this adrenal thing with this as well in writing these songs?

And you sit down, you write a song, it doesn't matter if you're 80 years old, you write a great song and all of a sudden you feel invigorated again and you feel like you're 25 years old.

What's going on there?

- Well, I don't write a lot anymore.

I really don't.

I mean, I wrote for a lot of years, but now I've got grandkids and I like to work.

I just like to work, I like the money, I like to work.

I like where it takes my head when I'm performing.

So as far as the creativity part of it, for me, it's just being able to do the songs in a way that's gonna connect to that person sitting in front of me.

Whether I like the song or not.

There's a lot of songs I do just because I know they're probably gonna like it, 'cause like Dave, I'm kind of a jazz buff in my heart.

But jazz has what 1% of the market maybe.

And so I'll play the Morgan Wallen or the John Denver or the James Taylor, Eagles, Beatles, George Jones, whatever I think that audience.

And I try to grab a little bit of all of that if I don't know who my audience is, if they're just there waiting at the airport, like Valierie was talking about earlier, you don't know what they like.

So, it's, I know that's not what you asked me exactly, but I don't do a lot of writing anymore.

It's been probably 15 years since I've really taken writing seriously.

- And do you think you'd ever possibly circle back to it again?

- I don't think so, but writing is kind of got me in positions.

I mean, when I lived in Detroit, as we talked earlier, I had two major record deals, RCA, but those didn't happen.

So God sent me to Nashville and I went on the road with Barbara Mandrell, with George Jones, with Shania Twain, got the Opry gig that I did for six years.

But still always played little gigs, always played at this club or that club, or this hotel, and I love doing that.

I just love doing that.

I love to play, you know?

It's my Jones, you know?

- Yeah.

Dave Pomeroy.

- Well, yeah, I think that when you play or perform or write, you're reaching back into yourself to that thing that got you started.

For me, I was a kid living in England in the early 60s, and I got a two year head start on The Beatles.

- [Frederick] Wow.

- And we stayed up all night with the rest of England and watched them on, "The Ed Sullivan Show" two years later.

But I was a military kid, youngest of three kids.

My older brother and sister became lawyers.

I saw them, and I wanted to be a musician.

And I had to fight to get that.

I had to convince my parents that it was okay for me to drop outta college and come over to Europe where they were stationed, 'cause I wanted to go to London and be a rock star.

And I convinced them of that just because of the desire, which all came down to that first moment when you start playing and you figure stuff out.

That creative sense, whether you're writing a song, whether you're doing a gig, whether you're rehearsing, arranging, it's all the same nerve endings that are getting stimulated.

And to me, that's where the youth of it is, is that every time I pick up the bass and play, there's still a part of me that's 12 years old going, "Yeah, I'm not Paul McCartney yet."

(all laughing) So, I think music is very rejuvenating.

And I think what Dan's talking about where you have an audience that you don't really know and you have a job to do, which is entertain them.

And it's up to you to be creative on several levels.

You have to be able to perform that song, but you also have to be, you're picking your own songs.

And as you're doing a song, you're thinking about what's the next song.

That didn't work, what am I gonna do now?

So the creative process has so many different convoluted areas, but they all kind of come to the same thing of like, yeah, I love this.

- Absolutely.

You had mentioned earlier, Valierie, about your journey as a female artist, but also your journey as an African American.

Give us some insight into being an African American music artist as well.

What is that like when you're able to sort of cross those lines or those boundaries and things like that and people see you for you, and sometimes the music is the only gateway at times to get people to see you, is you, because you could be walking down the street and people just look at you and say, "Oh, she's just a Black woman."

(Valierie chuckling) How do you overcome that through your music?

- Well, music, it's a refuge for me.

I do it because it brings me joy and I sing country music because it brings me joy.

I mean, I grew up in the country, it's country, country living.

Those are the things I write about.

But from what you're talking about, and this is just a story that happened with my mom.

My mom was cleaning the home of the lady who was the president of Randy Travis's fan club.

And back in the day when it was a cassette, she was playing this music, my music through the Home.

And she said, she asked my mom, "Who is that?"

And she said, "That's my daughter."

And she said, "Well, she doesn't sound Black."

I mean, what does that mean?

It's country, it's still country.

It's still country music.

So I think that people are, um, are sometimes shocked, you know?

when they see that I'm African American and singing country music.

But the first year we were at Fan Fair, we were welcomed.

We were so welcomed there.

And this was with the Black Country Music Association.

We were very welcomed.

And they loved what the female artists that were with the Black Country Music Association and the showcase.

They loved what we were doing.

And they loved that there was some diversity.

It just seems like fans welcomed it.

I don't always feel like Music Row welcomed it here, right here in Nashville.

But we have traveled outside of Nashville and we're made very welcome.

And I think we're moving past that in some ways.

I hope so.

I like to think that.

But at the end of the day, it's, it's I think I just happen to, I'm a country artist and I just happen to be, have brown skin.

That's what I like to think of it as.

And I hope that other people think of it in that way too.

- Dave, Dan, you guys like jazz, you like blues.

There's all kinds of really great African American genres that are out there, R&B, soul or whatever.

We could probably have a conversation about Wilson Pickett or Otis Redding and things like that.

What is this one way street with this stuff?

Like, why is she jammed up as a Black artist.

By coming the other way, everybody's like, "Oh yeah, I like Black music too.

And then I can go do rock and roll and go do country, and that's okay."

But she's not allowed to be on that two lane highway.

She's gotta be on one highway.

And that she has the sound a certain way and be a certain way, even though we know that her culture fuels a big part of what everybody loves about music all over the world.

- Yeah, well, I think unfortunately, stereotypes are part of human nature, and people love to put other people in boxes and categories.

One of my favorite, two of my favorite musical terms come from Duke Ellington.

One is, "There's two kinds of music.

Good and bad.

And if you like it, it's good."

The other one is the term beyond category.

Because I think now as all these genres come together, you hear things that were lifted either literally or stylistically from records in the 60s, R&B, grooves.

And all of a sudden that's part of country music.

But the person who's singing it does not necessarily reflect that culture as much as just borrowing from it.

But what I've learned about Nashville is it was always more diverse than it gave itself credit for.

And that the world gave us credit for, from all the way from the Fisk Jubilee singers to DeFord Bailey, to Otis Blackwell writing songs for Elvis.

I mean, it's always been there.

The problem has been, to me, from the industry itself, wanting to segment and keep everything separate, where it really all should be every river goes to the ocean.

And so I think sometimes human nature is our enemy there because it's like Charley Pride, the things they had to do to get Charley Pride to be successful.

And then, oh yeah, by the way, he's Black.

And it's like, people already loved him, 'cause they loved the music.

It shouldn't have had to been that way, but Che Atkins and Jack Clement were very careful in how they marketed those first couple singles, and they established him as an artist that went way beyond the color of his skin.

And there's so many examples of those that I think the industry sells itself short in that sense.

And this need to divide everything into categories.

I think to me, that's the fundamental issue is that if something moves you, it's good music.

The skin color to me is totally irrelevant.

I mean, I have always loved all kinds of music by all kinds of people.

I love traditional East Indian music, I love afrobeat music.

I mean, all these things are part of our culture.

And as we absorb them, we should never lose respect for how that got to be so funky.

(all laughing) - Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Dan, do you think that the same forces that are at work that segregate the music business are also the same forces at work that wrestle the artist away from their intellectual property as well?

Do you see this as a possible correlation?

That she's put into a box and she has to perform a certain way, or she can only do certain types of music and she's gotta sing, walk, and talk, be a certain way.

And at the same time, too, the pressures that are put on other songwriters that, "Okay, we love your song, but we don't love you.

And when we wanna separate you from your song."

So that same type of corporate attitude that's there, that's putting her into a box is then putting all of the artists into a box as well.

All music artists experience a certain amount of isolation and segregation as well.

Hers is just a little bit more topical because you can just look at her and see, okay, she's a Black woman, she's easy to compartmentalize, but you're a great songwriter, but I'm gonna still treat you like her and I still put you in a box and I wanna take your IP.

- Let me piggyback on what Dave said about his upbringing.

He was raised in England.

I was raised in Michigan by two musicians.

My father was a musician.

He was a DJ at two different radio stations.

He played five nights a week.

My mother, I'm the oldest of seven kids.

So when mom was pregnant, I played with dad in the honky-tonks.

I moved to Detroit, the radio station's up there played everything from The Beatles to The Supremes to the Four Tops.

We talked about The Stylistics, all the rock, The Birds, The Kinks, the Buffalo Springfield.

That was my education.

So I loved The Supremes, I loved Buffalo Springfield.

I moved to Nashville and I come here and I see these unbelievable, amazing musicians who are educated musically.

- [Frederick] Right.

- What's different between just a singer, not degrading you as a singer, but I'm a singer too.

But when you play an instrument, there's an education that never stops growing.

You can learn to sing and be a great singer and sing.

It's kinda like songwriting.

Like I said earlier, I don't really write songs anymore.

I'm really not interested in it.

But I am interested in learning more music, and I like to hear new music come out.

And because of all those elements.

And of course with my dad, he was a country singer.

He loved Ray Price, George Jones, Buck Owens.

And one of my things on my bucket list was to work for George Jones, which I got to do in '99.

And he's just, even though he was probably an uneducated Texas hillbilly, the way he sang was competitive with Pavarotti or Steve Perry or any great singer.

But with music.

- Sam Brookes - Yeah, yeah, - Exactly.

I'm gonna stop you right there.

So the point is that this is a consortium.

This is everybody coming together.

We need everybody to be with everybody in order to make great music.

And I think a lot of the corporate powers that be miss all of that.

And so much of who you are as an artist, and you as an artist, and you as an artist, you're all feeding and fueling from one another as well.

And then the people that sit at the ivory towers and the corporate world, they don't realize that because they live their lives segregated from everybody else.

So they don't understand the genesis of great songwriting and great artistry is your ability to connect with others.

And so I wanted to thank you all for being here today.

This has been endlessly fascinating.

We could go on and on and on about this.

And so it feels like we just got started and all of a sudden, yeah.

- I would just make one quick point on what you said.

- Uh-oh, uh-oh see.

(Valierie laughing) - Which is, yeah, I can't help myself.

(Frederick laughing) Bass solo, no.

(all laughing) But the business has changed.

- [Frederick] Sure.

- There was a time when musicians and producers were running the record labels.

- Well, and that has a lot to, and now I can argue with you.

I agree with you 110%, but that was because you had to go get a musician.

You had to get someone that could come in and actually write a real song, not use AI, and actually play an instrument and not use a synthesizer as well.

I mean, and that's what made it so great.

And then as tech has just sort of been able to push a lot of these artists aside, they don't need 'em anymore.

They don't wanna do 'em anymore.

I mean, I know old guys in the business now, they sit around and they talk to their AI and say, "Come up with an idea for me to make a really good album that's like a hip hop album that meets country music."

Like they, that's what they do now to create music, which is ridiculous.

- But I think the reason for that is because they're not creative people.

You have corporate people running- - Absolutely.

- These record labels because it's just an investment.

- [Frederick] Sure, for money.

Exactly.

- Yeah.

- And corporations have bought a lot of these record labels as well.

- Exactly, and then pushed the musicians out of the creative process, which is why the music's not as good as it was.

- Exactly.

And they're all venture people, and they're like, "Okay, we are tied to all of this huge dollar, and we don't want to think about diversity.

We don't want to think about gender equity.

We don't want to think about a guy and his dog riding in a pickup truck."

They don't want to think about any of that.

- A few exceptions, - Music ought to be more about love than money.

I'll say that.

(chuckles) - Very good, absolutely without question.

Life should be more about love than money.

- [Valierie] Yes.

- And so, music is life.

- Yeah.

- And I think that's one of the things that all three of you have displayed with this conversation today as well.

But I hope that this is imparted on a lot of people that have the opportunity to watch this.

Once again, thank you, all for being here, and I look forward to seeing you all again.

And I hope that we can do this again sometime very soon as well.

- Absolutely.

- Thank you.

- You guys are great by the way.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- And so keep going and it doesn't matter.

You can do this till the end of time, and I hope you continue to make songs that people will enjoy till the end of time as well.

- Absolutely.

- Thank you.

- Thank you, Frederick.

- You got it.

- Thank you.

(Blues Music) - [Announcer] Major funding for Aging Matters is provided by the West End Home Foundation, enriching the lives of older adults through grant making, advocacy, and community collaboration.

The Jeanette Travis Foundation, dedicated to improving the health and wellbeing of the Middle Tennessee community, the HCA Healthcare Foundation on behalf of TriStar Health.

Additional funding provided by Jackson National Life Insurance Company.

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