- [Narrator] "The Songwriters" is supported in part by the Nashville Convention and Visitors Corporation, Rusty and Kacie Gaston, the Mike Curb Foundation, SESAC, BMI, and ASCAP, Rich and Charlotte Hallworth, Kerry O'Neil and Carla Wallace.

Additional support is provided by... (gentle piano music) ♪♪ (gentle piano music continues) ♪♪ (gentle music continues) (bright guitar music) ♪♪ (bright guitar music continues) ♪♪ (bright guitar music continues) ♪♪ (bright guitar music continues) - Welcome to "The Songwriters."

I'm Ken Paulson, and today we are doing the show from a new location.

This is Allentown Studios in the heart of Music Row, and it's where so many of our Nashville Songwriter Hall of Fame writers have had their songs recorded.

And some of those songwriters were also artists, and they've recorded here as well, so it's a historic place for us, and we're honored to be here and particularly honored to have this gentleman here.

Welcome, Tom Shapiro.

- Thank you, Ken.

- You have had all kinds of accolades.

First of all, 2008, you became a member of the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame, which is a big deal.

But I have to tell you, I look at your credits, you were named the Songwriter of the Decade for the '90s.

- Mm-hmm.

- (chuckles) Think about that.

- It was a good decade.

- (chuckles) Think about that.

- It was a good time.

Yeah.

There's, you know, it suggests sustained success, big hits, all of that happened.

But I was thinking about this, you know, in the average, well, in a century, there's only 10 songwriters of the decade.

- Right.

- And in the '20s, it would've been Irving Berlin, and in the '30s, perhaps George Gershwin.

- Gershwin, yeah.

- So, so they didn't write Country, but the point is it's saying what an achievement.

That had to be kind of stirring professionally.

- Pretty shocking, but you just don't know what you're doing and how good it's working.

But no, it was a great honor.

It was a great honor.

- And I'm sure you, like many songwriters, when you tell somebody you're a songwriter, they say, "Well, what'd you write?"

You just dip into your stack, you had 26 number ones.

- Mm-hmm.

(Ken chuckles) - And I'm sure, unlike some folks who had just one song, if they don't know the first two, you got 24 more you can show.

- Right, right, right.

- That's right.

- How did this all begin?

I know you're from Kansas City, which is not a hotbed of Country music writing.

- [Tom] No.

No.

- So I assume you eventually had to get out of there?

- Yeah.

- What was your path?

- Okay, my path was this.

I met a guy in France, believe it or not, from Oklahoma.

This was the end of my senior year.

And he was in a dormitory and he was playing guitar.

And I walked down there and I said, "What are you doing?"

He said, ah, said he was a songwriter.

And I said, "I've always wanted to write songs."

We started writing.

So now we're 18 years old, we were gonna be Lennon and McCartney, okay.

And he went his way, I went my way.

I ended up Boston University.

I ended up in LA, okay.

Because I was gonna be a pop song[writer], pop and R&B was what I did.

And I was there for pretty much the '70s decade, and I had some success, but it was tough.

It was tough.

A lot of part-time jobs and stuff like that.

- I have to step in here and ask you.

- Yeah.

- First of all, what are the odds that you would meet somebody?

(chuckles) - It's crazy.

- I'd like to write songs.

- It's crazy.

- [Ken] And then you can write songs.

- Right.

- [Ken] Did you have any sense that you had skill with this?

- When I was, you know, I was writing, I had a girlfriend in eighth grade that I wrote a little song for and stuff like that.

(Ken laughs) You know, stuff like that.

But not really, but I loved music and I loved songwriters.

And we shared immediately, we both shared the love of Jimmy Webb.

- Oh, okay.

- Jimmy Webb, we had Bacharach, Jimmy Webb, Motown, Beatles, you know, those are the influences, main influences.

- Before you were going to be a songwriter, before you met this guy, what were you gonna be?

- [Tom] Golfer.

- Golfer?

- A golfer.

I was gonna be in the PGA.

Guess what?

I suck.

(Ken chuckles) I made the right career choice.

- You were a young man with a lot of serious dreams.

- [Tom] Serious dreams.

- Center for the Knicks, was that the next thing?

- No, it wasn't.

I didn't have the skill.

I was tall enough, but no, no.

(chuckles) - So, you knocked around in the '70s, and an awful lot of people early in their career, if they don't have success, they go back to playing golf for a living or whatever.

- Sure, sure, sure.

- How did you persevere?

- I wanted it really badly, but I will tell you, by the end of the '70s, it was over for me.

I just went, "I can't take it anymore.

I just can't take it anymore.

I don't think it's gonna happen."

I was having trouble in marriage and whatnot, and it was just a tough time for me.

But I had this, the miracle happened.

And the miracle was this.

It was on a Friday.

I had a publisher who was publishing one of my songs called "Never Give Up on a Good Thing."

He called me up and he said, "George Benson," who was, at that time, biggest act in the world, "is looking for one more song for a greatest hits album."

And he asked me what song I wanted, and I said, "Please play that one for Benson."

Anyway, I didn't hear from him.

On Monday morning, I was getting ready to go to work, I was working at a music store.

And he goes, "Are you sitting down?"

And I said, "What happened?"

He said, "We got it."

That's what he said.

And I thought he was talking about a song I wrote for a grade-Z porno movie.

(Ken laughs) And so all I thought was, "Yeah, we're gonna eat tonight."

- Are there grades of porno movies?

- This was, anyway, we won't get into that.

You know, you do anything you can.

He said, "No, George Benson cut your song over the weekend."

(Ken chuckles) It went from black to white, my life just changed over that one thing.

- And it was not only successful in the U.S., it was particularly successful internationally.

- Particularly successful, and it still is.

It still is, it was a huge, huge record for me.

The guy I wrote it with is named Michael Garvin.

Michael lived in Nashville.

And Michael, but he was writing in LA, we were writing in LA.

And he said, "Why don't you come to Nashville?"

I said, "Great."

He said, "I'm going back there to pitch some songs.

Let's write some Country songs."

I said, "Eh, I don't wanna write Country.

I don't like Country."

I didn't know, okay?

(Ken chuckles) He said, "Let's just do it.

They're like regular songs.

Do you have any titles?"

And I said, "Yeah, I got these trick titles."

One of them was called "Every Time You Throw Dirt on Her, You Lose a Little Ground."

(Ken laughs) And, "Yeah, I like that," he wrote that and we wrote some other ones.

Anyway, he goes back there and he calls me up and he says, George Strait, this new act named George Strait, just cut that song," which it is on the first album.

- Wow!

- "Every Time You Throw Dirt On Her, You Lose A Little Ground."

- Wow.

- So getting the Benson thing, it was at the time of "Urban Cowboy."

So when I went to Nashville, everyone went, "Oh, you can write Pop."

So I was fortunate enough, that's why I said the miracle, to get with great writers.

Bobby Braddock, Curly Putman, a guy named Bucky Jones, Don Cook.

It opened all kinds of doors for me.

And that's what started it.

That's what started it.

- You know, you could be forgiven at that point in your career to think that all I have to do is find right place, right time.

(chuckles) - Right.

- And the rest of my career is done.

- Yeah, I got lucky with it.

- So as a songwriter with a Pop sensibility- - Right.

- Did that set you apart from your peers?

- Yes, yes, because I was very well aware of groove, melody because it is music, you know?

And lyrically, I was okay, I was an okay lyricist.

I learned how to be, I think, a pretty good lyricist from these great, great writers.

But what I think I might have helped them with is that I taught music.

I was at Berklee.

I mean, I knew how to do music.

And I could hear something and go, "You know, I think we can beat that if we do this note or that note or that chord or that."

I was always looking for the little unexpected, little ear candy thing.

- Well, in your decade of astonishing success, that included a song called "Wink."

- "Wink," yeah.

- And I hear in that song your Pop sensibilities.

I think that could've been a hit Pop, it may have charted somewhere as a Pop record.

- It's been, yeah, it's done.

- And I can remember coming to this town myself right as Neal McCoy made this monster record out of it.

And thinking, like you thought, you know, I'm not a big Country fan.

- [Tom] Right, right.

And thinking that is just a brilliant record.

And I hear things in that that I didn't think existed in contemporary, you know, Country.

You know, I admired a lot of the Steve Earle and Kristofferson and those folks.

- [Tom] Oh, absolutely.

- But the mainstream top 40 in Country, this just was fresh-sounding.

- Right.

- Where did that song come from?

- (chuckles) Okay, I'll try to make this quick.

- No need.

- I wrote with Bob DiPiero.

Bob and I had written, the day before, another song, which was a hit, called, it was our first time together, it was called "Walking Away a Winner" that Kathy Mattea did.

We had finished it the morning...next day, we went to lunch, because we really didn't know each other, and we started talking and talking, drinking and drinking.

And went back, and I was done for the day.

And he goes, "Uh, let's write another song."

Now, Bob, you know, I'm sure you've interviewed Bob, you know, "Ah, let's write another song."

- Yeah.

- I go, "Bye."

I said, "I have this idea called 'Wink.'

And I've tried it on a couple people, they didn't like it."

And I had the lyric except for one line, the psychoanalyze, third line in the chorus.

He said... I said, "But I don't have the feel for it.

I don't have the feel."

Well, he picks up his guitar and just start banging like that.

(Ken chuckles) And it just came to me.

- Wow.

- The melody, the whole thing.

But if it wasn't for him.

I wouldn't have done that, 'cause on piano, you'll see it doesn't sound great, but it was him doing that.

And that song is the purest hit I've ever had.

- How so?

- Okay.

Irving Berlin said, actually I love this, he said the only round song he ever wrote was "White Christmas."

The only round song I ever wrote was "Wink."

Round song means, most songs are rectangle or square, they fit in a page, okay?

And it's very like, you did this, you did it.

"Wink" just kind of, just, and "White Christmas," they just happen, they just happen, and they never get tired.

I asked my wife the other day, "How old a song do you think that is?"

She said, "Eh, 18 years old."

I said, "30 years old."

(Ken chuckles) And it still just kinda holds up, and people like it, you know?

- And could you do us the honor of playing a bit of that for us?

- I'll play a little verse and chorus of it.

Let's see if I can do it.

(upbeat piano music) ♪♪ ♪ I woke up this morning, my head felt dense ♪ ♪ Splashed it with water trying to make it make sense ♪ ♪ Stumbled to the kitchen, she was standing at the sink ♪ ♪ All she had to do was just give me that wink ♪ ♪ And slam-bam I'm feeling alright ♪ ♪ Troubles take a hike in the blink of an eye ♪ ♪ Don't need to psychoanalyze or have a stiff drink ♪ ♪ All she's gotta do is just give me that wink ♪ ♪♪ ♪ Now, it's her way of saying she's on my side ♪ ♪ An unspoken message that works every time ♪ ♪ When my brain starts smoking and I can't even think ♪ ♪ All she's gotta do ♪ ♪ is just give me that wink ♪ ♪ And slam-bam I'm feeling alright ♪ ♪ Troubles take a hike in the blink of an eye ♪ ♪ Don't need to psychoanalyze or have a stiff drink ♪ ♪ All she's gotta do ♪ ♪ is just give me that wink ♪ ♪ And slam-bam ♪ ♪ I'm feeling alright ♪ ♪ Troubles take a hike ♪ ♪ in the blink of an eye ♪ ♪ Don't need to psychoanalyze or have a stiff drink ♪ ♪ All she's gotta do is just give me that wink ♪ ♪ Yeah, all she's gotta do ♪ ♪ is just give me that wink ♪ (both chuckling) - Well done, and now I have a mental picture of Bob just doing this.

- Just wailing that guitar.

- Wam, bam.

- Yeah.

- That's an interesting point you make about you share it with Bob DiPiero, and suddenly it's there.

- Yeah.

- Has that happened before?

Are co-writers sometimes just, they're gonna unlock a key that you couldn't try?

- Absolutely!

I'll do a really quick one.

Is a big co-writer of my named Chris Waters called me up and he said, "I'm producing this girl singer named Terri Clark.

Female hat act."

I said, "Well, that's unusual."

Let's get together and write with her.

- [Ken] Right.

- So I walk in, the minute I see her, she's a beautiful girl too, she's got the hat on.

I hear her sing, I go, "She's a star."

I knew it, okay?

I said, "I have an idea."

And what I said was it's called "Better Things To Do With My Love."

Like I've got better things to do with my love.

And both of them, Chris and Terri were like, "Yeah, it's good.

It's good."

Kinda like, "Alright."

And then Chris went, "What if you call it 'Better Things to Do?'"

I got, you know, to talking, I got better things to do.

And I was like, "Yeah."

And then he goes, "Like wash my car in the rain.

Change my new guitar strings."

And I went... (lips pop) - Perfect.

- Yeah.

That's when we know.

And a funny little story on that is we finished it in an hour.

And Terri looks at me and she says, "Well, you know, you're famous, you know songs."

I said, "That is a hit."

And she goes, "Let's see if it's a hit after lunch."

Came back, we played it through, and I just looked at her and said, "Just as I suspected."

Which became our little code.

- And was Terri a co-writer on that as well?

- Yes, oh, she was very good.

Yeah, she had the line, "My stereo wires."

I can't remember what the line is, something about stereo, and she pronounced it stereo.

And I said, "No, no, it's stereo."

She goes, "No, it's stereo."

(Ken chuckles) It's one of my favorite lines in the song.

- Rodeo, I guess.

- [Tom] Yeah, Rodeo, yeah.

- So, was that her first hit?

- [Tom] That was her first hit.

- Wow.

And you've done that for a number of artists, I would bet.

- Yeah, "That Ain't My Truck" was Rhett Akins.

"No Place That Far" was Sara Evans.

I'm trying to think what else.

- [Ken] Darryl Worley's first number one was yours.

- Darryl Worley, "I Miss My Friend," uh-huh.

- That's gotta feel good.

- It feels great.

- You're giving somebody a career.

- Yeah.

It feels great.

- And a number one in the process.

- And it ain't bad for me either.

(chuckles) - Yeah.

As somebody walking into a room with somebody you're about to co-write with, and you've done obviously quite a bit of that, and, you point out, with some tremendously talented people, I would think that everybody isn't walking in with an equal number of ideas that- - No, we have a little code which is, "So what do you feel like writing today?"

- Yeah.

- Which means, what do you got?

- Yeah.

- But I think I've been fortunate, a lot of people I've written with have tried to walk into the room with something, including myself.

Don't always succeed, but you try to have an idea.

It helps.

Sometimes you don't.

- So, you walk into a room, and there's Terri Clark.

Statuesque, beautiful woman with a hat.

- Hat on.

- Cowboy hat.

And it actually inspires the nature of that song.

- [Tom] Of course, of course.

- And she, I mean, she's sort of an imposing, clearly confident, independent woman.

- Right, sassy.

- You write a song about a clearly confident, independent woman.

- [Tom] Independent woman, yeah.

- How often does that happen, where you go, "I'm writing this song, this song's going to Darryl Worley, and I'm writing it in his style"?

And how often is it just a question of, "I'm gonna to write a good song and throw it up"?

- Well, you know, things have changed in the industry, as you know, songwriters, and I still talk to them.

I mean, it's by assignment or you're writing with the artist or you're writing with a track guy or whatever.

In my day, it was try to write a good song.

Once in a while, you aim it towards somebody.

I had a song called "If Your Heart Ain't Busy Tonight" for Tanya Tucker.

I thought it was aimed too well because she had had a song called "Walking Shoes."

I though it was just a copy of it.

She never cut it.

She cut it, and it was a hit.

You know, surprised me.

But in the case of "Better Things To Do," I was so confident, especially when they did the demo, or when they finished the record, that I did something I never do, I went to, I can't remember his last name now, Luke, who ran Mercury, I guess.

And he was asking about it.

I said, "That's the first single."

And he said, "No, we're gonna go with..." I said, "That's the first single."

I was really adamant about it.

And I guess he listened to me.

I guess.

(Ken chuckles) - Don't you know who I am?

I'm gonna be the Songwriter of the Decade.

- Yeah, well, I was full of myself sometimes, yeah.

- Well, one of the other ways that rolls out, though, is if you... Even Stevens, for example, he and, you know, Eddie Rabbitt fall together and then they write song after song together.

- Absolutely.

Great songs.

- So some people are linked- - Right.

- In that way, but you've always been sort of a free agent.

- Yeah, I mean, Tony Martin and Mark Nessler, who wrote for many years, Chris Waters for many years, Michael Garvin in the '80s.

But no, no, I wrote, yeah.

- So given that you're telling the head of, (clears throat) excuse me, the head of Mercury what single to put out.

- You have good instincts about what will be a hit.

Are there Tom Shapiro songs that to this day you're going, "How did that not become a hit?"

- There's a song that I wish I could perform it for you, and I'm sorry I can't.

It was called, well, yeah, there's a couple of 'em, but this one just, it was a Terri Clark thing.

I know why it wasn't a hit.

It was a ballad.

Nobody's probably ever heard of it.

They did put it out.

It's called "Just The Same."

But I dearly love this song.

I'm sorry I can't play it for you, but you can look it up.

Look up Terri Clark, "Just the Same."

Yeah.

- Just to make young songwriters at home feel bad, what percentage of songs you wrote were hits?

- Oh, God.

I don't know.

I never thought of it.

- [Ken] More than half?

- No, I wrote, I mean, I wrote like 2 to 3,000 songs.

- Okay, so I'm gonna reverse my statement to make young songwriters out there feel good.

- [Tom] Feel good, no, no, no, you have to work and you have to work and you have to work.

- You weren't a 90% guy.

- Oh my God!

No, no.

- You write and you write, and you have some that you think are great.

Some that you just know are hits, some that you believe are hits and they're not, you know?

- Well, "Ain't Nothing About You" was a big hit.

- [Tom] Big hit.

- And also a great record.

It just sounded fabulous- - It was everything.

It was everything.

- [Ken] Where did that come from?

- Okay.

There's a good story.

I'll try to make this fairly brief.

I had never written with Rivers Rutherford before.

Didn't know if I wanted to write with him.

Someone, George Teren was a mutual friend, he didn't wanna write with me.

He was more of the artsy.

I was more of the commercial.

But George said, "I think you guys get together."

Anyway, that morning, I thought to myself, I wasn't even thinking of an idea for him, but I was in the shower going, "What's another way of saying I love everything about you?"

That's all, just a little exercise.

"And it ain't nothing about you, don't do something for me" came out, I went, "Hmm, okay, that's all."

- [Ken] That came outta your head?

- That came outta my head.

Okay.

(Ken chuckles) So I wrote it down.

I meet Rivers.

Rivers came in with a little opening melody.

(warm piano music) (Tom humming) ♪♪ Anyway, had that.

And I thought it was great.

And then I said, "Hey, I got an idea that might work with that."

And I started singing the chorus.

Not as it is today, or as it was.

And he was like, "Where'd you come up with that?"

And I explained it to him.

He said, "Oh."

So we wrote it, neither of us thinking it was a big deal.

Honestly.

Just didn't think it was that big.

So my assistant who was working for me had heard us do it.

And he said, "You gotta finish that song."

So we did finish it.

I went, I was on a trip in Europe.

Rivers went to studio, did a demo on it.

I didn't talk to him or anything, I got back.

There were a bunch of demos waiting for me.

That was the last one I heard, about 11 o'clock at night.

And at two in the morning, I couldn't stop listening to it.

I knew after the demo that we had a monster.

- Yeah.

And that ends up with Brooks & Dunn because?

- George Galante, George... Joe Galante wanted the song for them.

But I'll tell you a real funny story is that they walked into the studio to cut that song.

But they said, "Before we cut that song, we wanna cut the song we wrote called 'Only in America,'" which was a big hit for them.

I think the sessions went from 6 to 10.

At 10 to 10, they finally got the cut.

They were walking out of the studio, and Mark Wright said, "We oughta try this other song that Joe said to do."

Ronnie was, "Eh, okay, I'll do it."

What you hear, the record you hear, the first track, the first vocal, that was it.

- Wow.

- That's it.

That was as it came down.

- Wow.

- And then everyone went, "Yeah, this might work."

(Ken laughs) - I wonder if they ever reflect on their hastiness that day.

- Mm, probably not.

- "Only in America" was one of Kix Brooks' songs.

- Yeah, yeah, it was a big song.

- So I'm sure he was, you know, writing for Brooks & Dunn, you had Ronnie Dunn wrote, Kix Brooks wrote, and every songwriter on Music Row was trying to get cuts, so I'm sure once they had one that they felt they owned, they were gonna be very protective of it.

- I understood.

I mean, I understood.

And when I got the first single on that, it was great.

I knew that was gonna be a monster record.

- Well, your body of work is so impressive, and you paid the mortgages for so many artists who didn't otherwise have a hit or a career.

That's all gotta be very rewarding.

- It is.

- I wanna ask you about what some might regard as a footnote to your career.

I mean, you've also been a producer.

And you made so many Nashville songwriters happy when you brought Dusty Springfield to town.

and gave them a chance- - Sure.

- To write for the, you know, the female soul singer of the '60s.

- [Tom] Right.

- It's a giant, notoriously difficult, woman.

- Yeah.

(chuckles) - But just an amazing voice.

- Yeah.

- And I suppose you drew on your Pop roots there a bit as well.

- Oh yeah, I mean, not only was I taking songs from, it was worldwide.

I mean, people were sending songs from all over the world because of this thing.

We were trying to recreate "Dusty in Memphis."

- [Ken] Right.

- And a friend of mine was running Epic or whatever it was over in England, and he put us together.

And it was great.

I mean, going through songs, the first two or three songs were instant.

After that, it was tough finding songs for her.

But yeah, Diane Warren had a couple on there.

I can't think.

The guys who wrote "What's Love Got To Do With It" were on there.

- I know Jim Photoglo is grateful for the- - Jim Photoglo and DiPiero, yeah.

A really good song.

They wrote good songs.

- That's been your entire life.

- Yeah.

- Good songs.

Well, congratulations on your many honors.

- Thank you.

- One last question.

- [Tom] Sure!

- You described "Ain't Nothing About You" popping into your head.

If you leave the studio today, drive down the road, and something pops into your head, what do you do with it?

- That's a good question.

At this point, you know, it's been, see, I retired in... 2014.

We're almost getting into 10 years, okay?

Yes, I will call up some writers and say, "I got an idea if you like it, have it.

Maybe give me a little taste, you know."

But no, I don't write anymore.

I just don't write anymore.

- Well, thank you for the gifts you have given us.

- Thank you.

- It's been a real pleasure to have you here.

- Thank you.

(lighthearted guitar music) ♪♪ (lighthearted music continues) - [Announcer 2] For more information on "The Songwriters," visit SongwritersShow.org ♪♪ - [Announcer 1] "The Songwriters" is supported in part by the Nashville Convention & Visitors Corporation, Rusty and Kacie Gaston, the Mike Curb Foundation, SESAC, BMI, and ASCAP, Rich and Charlotte Hallworth, Kerry O'Neil and Carla Wallace.

Additional support is provided by... (gentle piano music) ♪♪ (gentle music continues) ♪♪ (bright music) (cheerful music)